Dag - Boston

I thought you boys who lived there might appreciate this.

Me too

I second that emotion... hope everyone's having a great winter, Christmas, holiday season, and New Year's.

Cheers y'all.

...

And here's to James Brown. What would house music have been without you.

ho ho hello?

thanks, Chris. I think I'm the only one here though. I hope the rest of the guys are alright. I'll see ya later I bet.

Thak wants to bring it.

this I believe should be our closing rap...If you like it use it. Please feel free to do additions or changes as you like. I think we should all be on stage for this..

Are we done with this show? (said nonchalantly)
You seen fluidity flow...(easing into rap form)
Are you gonna vote for these bitches or me and my richness! (rap mode coming on)

Pull out the Dictionary cause it's gonna get scary.( delievered in that whiny sort of tone of old rappers, beat boxing begins)

Lucubration,(name of our biggest rap foe) couldn't see when he study, so we gets his verbal jaculation.
Poor performance, premature, I make him demure.
We reach the denoumont, he's lost.
That's cool cause it aint his vocation.
To know what's what.
Talk to Les Bon Tempes Filles, they can't find his willie.
His oral performance, well we all can see.
He fucks and sings like Milli Vanilli.

TK and the Inverse.
Tet a Tet with the perverse.
Place ya bet, bet your whole purse.
TK and the Crew they gonna come through.

These rhymes are proof of Panentheism.
A guaranteed cure for their verbal.....Barbarism?
Our Kerygma apparent cause of knowledge inherent.
Their rhymes problematic, cause they're simply dogmatic.

(another rapper for this verse, perhaps it's dag or Thren)
Don't drink their kool-aid, you'll need more than a bandaid.
Their lyrical delusions aint a panacea, it's just a simple case of buccal diarhea. (second part delivered in that whiny tone again)

No more Circumnambulistication, this is the treatise, they afraid you'd hear.

That we gonna stick your face in. (another rapper breaks in perhaps KT)

No assasains can stop us, we through with arbitration.
Now we commendeer this mic, so take a vacation (said by all, loudly and with conviction)
Our victory's here, and more than severe! (again said as a plain sentance which ends with the rapper dropping the mic and us standing over it as if to threaten anyone who would dare pick it up)

Are you guys willing to throw down like this? I haven't come up with the Prince rap and I think someone needs to. If I have to I could try but I think I just blew my wad. I would need a day off to do the prince thing. But hey it's not like we've seen any competition yet....

OMFG ROTFL LMFAO LOL ;)

I can't think of any other cheese to add. That sums up how I feel about Eidelweiss. Wo.

I think I knew it was called the Necto, from the last time (3-4 years ago) that I was in Ann Arbor.

They played some Cop Shoot Cop at the dance bar last night - and Killing Joke's 'Eighties'. Wo - another big blast from the past. It was friggin sweet and I danced my mess around, yo.

I will also continue my sporadic postings, since after tomorrow Rob and I are pretty much in the same boat as far as connectivity and doin'-stuff goes.

Blogger update

Well, Blogger is out of its beta phase. I updated my other blog Under Odysseus, but it took a while.

It does have a few advantages, including an instant publishing. -No spinning process thing.

Anyway, the short of it is that I'd like to update DiD, but there are two issues. First, it is going to take some time. -Probably a full day. Second, the reference pages that are coded with Frontpage might get jacked up a bit.

Nothing major should go down, but let me know when you guys want to take a break for a day or so and I'll make the switch.

We could keep this version, but I think the new one is better.

Real sweaty love
I didn't mean it like that
How was your day mom?

-Ew.

Internets give me music

Pushing the limits of the art form, that's us here on DiD. Change a couple letters, and SHAZAM you've got an ethnic NPC, and instantly visions of his backstory bloom in your heads. Was he raised in the rank upstairs apartment above his family's food shop? Were his grandparents immigrants, come over on a soot-filled overcrowded ship, only to manhandled and treated as worse-than-slaves upon their arrival? Does his breath smell like dog?

...

The Edelweiss clip is for Dave, mostly... doubtful any o the rest of us here remember that GEM. In other gemstone news, I discovered that Amazon carries AI 1 and AI 2... the (seriously now) fucking bloody brilliant techno compilations. I haven't bought anything with teh internet since I moved, but those are too good to believe, so I'm gonna test my mail delivery system and see if I can get them.

...

2006 was a crazy year in music, I've decided. People are making great music across all genres and all nations. Great hip-hop, great synth pop, great bubblegum pop, classic honest-to-god techno, Italian House for fuck's sake, and fantastic shit from France and India and Sri Lanka. Fuckin' African hip-hop and a motown revival.

But you know what could have made it the craziest? I'll tell you. If Diddy's new album 'Press Play' had actually been good. It started out so promising; with Diddy just telling us how it is and that he's back, over the piano loop from Tears for Fears' "Head Over Heels". Yeah!

If Diddy had pushed the limits; gone past Rihanna's "S.O.S." and Cassie's "Me & U"... if he had gone past Timberlake and Timbaland's "Sexyback"... gone past Christina Aguilera and Gorillaz and Gnarls Barkley's hip-hop motown weirdness... if he had gone beyond mashup and made a new synthesis of black and white music, merging stripped down techno, glitch, and new synthpop with hip-hop, crunk, and hyphy, already sorta stripped down and minimal themselves... it would've been a beautiful, magical thing. There'd be no hegemony, no hate, no separation of pop or underground, it'd just be a classless genreless dance music utopia where we ALL can get down.

I was excited to hear it after the New York Times gave an odd, favorable review of Diddy's new sound. But it's not a new sound. It's a tired sound. It sounds just like this: *sigh*.

Maybe 2007 will be the year music genres finally all implode. We're so, so close.

I liked it....a bit I guess, no I liked it.

I didn't know it was so easy to make a guy seem........rike zaht. I think my next char will have an accent just to spice things up.

And fifthly...

Edelweiss I first heard at the Nectarine Ballroom c. 1991:

For your viewing pleasure, I give you Edelweiss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv4SiMAzTGY

In related news, Kristin was just there at a party. It's called 'The Necto' now, and it's more eurotrash than 16 yr old suburban punk kids.

*pours out some of a 40 oz.*

...

So tomorrrow night starts my analogue of winter break. From tomrrow 'til the 4th of Jan, posting will try to still be supra-daily, but especially around 12-25 +/-2 it could be scant.

Mea culpa

For 'tomollow'.

And 'rill'.

A new campaign low.

And thirdly...

What would Jesus do?
Doing justice at all cost
A nuclear blast


Followed up with:

Look at the valley
It's not supposed to do that
A nuclear blast

On second thought...

I poked out my eyes
One brilliant idea
What would Jesus do?

reading

Welcome back, Justin. Here's to more A's than B's.

I'm reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins and "Great Expectations" by Dickens right now. Once again, I am a bit under-impressed with Dawkins. Still, like "The Selfish Gene", it should be read by most everyone.

As for Dickens, he's great. -I'd never thought I'd say that. I meant to get The Great Gatsby at this bookstore in Beijing for my flight back, but was distracted and picked up "Great Expectations" instead. Kind of a bizarre mistake, but I'm glad I made it.

I picture Azoth as having a winged helm. Kind like Hermes, I guess. -I remember this old AD&D artist (Earl Otus?) used to draw these guys with these helmets sporting ridiculously long wings. So long, that the guy could probably lean back a bit and rest on the points. Steve (Dag) used to have a character named Winglor when he was 12. -I bet he had some long wings on his helmet.

Lost.... indeed.

I avoided Lost as long as I could... then the wife brought home the DVDs from blockbuster one day in august... two weeks later we had watched both seasons. Season 3 is decent so far. You learn more about 'the others'. I won't say much. It should be a good season. They are on haiatus now, and of course they left things hanging over a cliff. I wanted to wait until the season was over and watch them straight through on DVD again, but temptation got the better of me.

An interesting sidenote that I think you will appreciate Rob: A buddy of mine was at Comicon this year. He visited the Lost booth. My buddy had this theory that Lost was based around "The Watchmen" graphic novels... anyway, he lobs this idea at the writers who were sitting at the table, and one of them gives him a grin and says something to the effect of "Nice of you to notice... you're the first."

I don't know. I never did read "The Watchmen", but I think it was something you had on your shelf when we were 13.

Congrats on surviving another semester Justin! Enjoy the break.

HAY GUYS WHTS GOIN ON IN THIS BOLG??/

Justin end of the semester: cheers to that! Lot of that going around; I just finished a two year set of experiments, and other friends have wrapped school shit up.

In terms of the game, the short of it is that you're all in an underground prison city. You can't easily leave, but there's a lot going on, so you might not have to just yet. You can train in Cleric, and probably should- that's retconned, as you acquired enough xp from before being thrown in prison. Most importantly, your equipment is reduced to zero. There are weapon making rules somewhere in there- Tut and Thaka have some very useful skills, and so if you want them to help you make some substandard but at least effective weapons, you can roll their checks for yourself.

Dave will be the first to champion House of Leaves; I read it on his recommendation. I think he read it so many times that his copy fell apart. Pretty good. Three short reads are Pale Fire by Nabokov, The White Castle by Pamuk, and Ficciones by Borges. All top shelf.

I just read Jhereg by Steven Brust. I liked it, I guess- but it was sort of like reading the in-character journal of 20th level guys. Lots of resurrections and resurrection blocking, teleports and teleport blocking, everyone has magic artifacts, I dunno. I prefer rusty daggers and 5 cp to 100000 year old necromancers who just casually hang out and have ancient weapons and shit. Also reading Against the Day, which is so far fantastic. Not that I have a ton of free time, but I've also gotten into 'Lost' and just started the 2nd season on DVD. Fucking great show, there. If we get to do another game, a Lost-inspired, Fallout style alone-in-the-wasteland start would be great I think. I don't got a TV, so if anyone's watching season 3, lemme know what you think.

Hai Guyz

So finals week is over and I more or less survived. Looks like I've got a lot of reading to do here, though! I note from the campaign summary page that we're in Twilos Slave City... what's our current situation?

Hope things are going well for you all... everything's a lot calmer for me now, and hopefully I scraped by with a few more A's than B's...

Azoth is back in the adventure. I gotta come up with a personality for the guy, thought...

Also, I'm gathering ideas for what to read over the holiday- suggestions, fellas? I've heard good things about "House of Leaves"- I'm thinking I'd like to try some fiction, as it's been a while.

Psionic blast

Thanks Mark, somehow I missed the second part of the interview first time 'round. Huh, so Gary himself didn't want weapon speeds, weapon vs armor type, or psionics. I would've totally pegged him as a weapon vs armor modifier guy, especially given his over-the-top appendix on polearms in UA.

Psionics have their place... just not at all how they did it in 1E. Or 2E. Or 3E. Maybe Traveller did 'em good. Probability Travel, Psionic Blast, mindflayers, these are all cool things though.

Interview with Gary Gygax

Have a read.

Don't miss the second part of the interview.

so cold no caps going sleepy

send canned food.....ate cats. help.

slingshot would be nice :)

Dave in Bellingham

Yeah, thanks for asking - last night there was a big windstorm, but no loss of power or anything here at the Naylors'. Three people called asking if everything was all right, though, which is how we knew there was something major going on.

For Christmas, I'm giving the Naylor kids my old laptop, a PS2 with Katamari Damacy, and (if I can find a cheap one) a Windows box and etc. to play Runescape on. Computers, videogames, and D&D ripoffs abound! Gotta get 'em early, I figure, but between Pokemon and videogames, kids these days are already down with being a guy with a sword who kills some orcs for treasure.

I miss adventures where my fighter with chainmail and a sword fights an orc with a battleaxe in a 10x10 room for a chest filled with copper pieces. I miss it a lot.

Pacific northwest storm

Hey Dave and Paul, you guys alright up there? Mike and family? Or did the storm miss you guys?

...

Some nice haikus:


Tomorrow I die
All the pain has gone away
Peace is all around

Longing for friendship
I lost the map to your heart
There is nothing worse

Dreams of peace now gone
My balloon floated away
Damn it, not Reverse!

Where's my goddam droid?
In a happy robot dance
Real sweaty love


Aren't those nice?

Short One Monster Manual Anyone?

Last night I finally dug out the box containing my AD&D books... It's been a while.

I discovered that though I have lost my players handbook, I have picked up an extra Monster Manual in my travels... I have three. One with my name in it, one with Will's name in it, and one with no name... speak up if you are missing one (you know.. from like 12 years ago) or perhaps if you just want an old MM1 let me know.

Muchas Gracias

Thanks for the tips Dave. Those are some good solid places to start.

Gnomes bleed a lot

Thanks Thak, that's actually very helpful. I think some in your party might wish you'd add 'Thou Shalt Help Bleeding Gnomes', but there's only so many hrs in the day.

And Ed is welcome to cast your spell non stop when he makes his next mage.

Uh huh.

I acquiesce about the spell. It's a fine 1st level spell.

Threnody

Hi all,

Steve - in reference to your post about breaking kids in: Mike Naylor has been playing a few adventures with his kids. Geared towards them and their quirks, and a very stripped-down version of 3.0 D&D - a lot of fun. I ran 'em through a one-shot, and it went really well - rescue some townspeople from the evil Necromancer and all. There were some tears, when Maggie went to half hit-points, but I say crying is fine in D&D, and it's the kind of thing that builds character. You can find some used 3.0 books (PH, DMG, Monster Manual) and that'll give them something to read and obsess over and all. Fun!

There's also an online MMPORG that's very kid-friendly (and 37-year-old-grad-student friendly), called Runescape. Runs in Java through a browser - and I use Safari no problem. Cheesy graphics, simple browser, enough complexity to be interesting, language filter and a big focus on kid-friendly. http://www.runescape.com/ is the URL - Chris turned me on to it, and I've been having a good time building my fishing and firebuilding skills, and killing goblins and spiders, and tooling around exploring. You get some online strokes, sure, and it's more fun to play with your family, but it's an option.

The first time I played was with Mom and Dad - Dad ran us through B1 or B2 - I played a cleric and an elf, mom played a fighter and a thief. That's when 'elf' was a class . . . Dad used the second hand of his watch as a random number generator, and we played at Meadowbrook waiting for the summer concert to start. It sticks in my mind, 32 years later, as a good time - we explored a dungeon and fought kobolds and orcs, and found some gems and healing potions. Fun! Although I imagine, the way you raise your kids, that you hate doing stuff like playing games with them, and you don't want them to use math or problem-solving skills or their imaginations at all . . . .

Anyway. You've got a huge source for ideas and assistance here - we all want the next generation to be gamers, I'm pretty sure. Keep us posted if you run anything for them!

Thak's views.....

Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
Thou shalt defend the Church.
Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word.
Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone.
Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.

I guess I focus on the not recoiling and the war without cessation, I do think I have a little mercy. I asked for it.

paul

takes too long to track.....and why roll. Same reason not to take move silent and hide in shadows if you can make a spell.

ed liked my spell.......

Preview

Rob, I see previews just fine with Firefox. My only problem is that the reference page has aome glich on the first couple of tables.

Dag nabbit

Yeah, Dag is Steve. The other Steve. Chris sort of dropped out, but he says he still reads it every now and then. It was him who initially posted the Friedman negative income tax thing that got us going about a month ago.

Chris doesn't have kids; not yet, although he and his lady are talking marriage &c.

...

Sorry about the italics. Yeah, that was me. Fuckin new internet browsers. I was happy with IE 5 or 6 or whatever. Then IE7 was installed, and it's garbage. Why aren't the menus at the top? Bad design. So I switched to Mozilla Firefox, and it's having trouble with some blogger stuff. Can't preview posts on the dashboard anymore, which was really useful for me. I want my old browser back.

...

Paul, a ranger would be fine too for tracking.

'Tis I... Bigdebe

I am Dag...or he is me...or some such thing.

A.k.a Dag

Is Dag Chris or Steve? I thought it was Chris all this time, but there was a reference to "oldest kid" and now I'm thinking Big Debe? Or does Chris have kids?

No Shame Intended

I have always been amazed by the bad press D&D receives. I could go on and on about the virtues of gaming... but preaching to choirs and all. Too many people are afraid of being associated with it. Closet gamers... My boss made a D&D reference the other day, and then quickly told me "that never leaves this room." Heaven forbid anyone think he played a game that stretches the mind and encourages creativity and problem solving skills.

One of my girlfriends in High School, Nicole... you guys remember that bitch... her dad was so vehemently opposed to D&D, he told her that she was "not to go near me while we were playing that evil game, nor be present when the books were out in the open." What a tool.

My oldest kid is about the age we were when we started playing... which kinda boggles the mind. I've been trying to figure out the best way to break him in. Any suggestions?

Freaks and Geeks

That clip makes me feel the shame pain. "Ogremach" and "Brujah", dear lord.

See, D&D has horrible, horrible PR. The best, most positive take on D&D I know was in the last episode of this TV show called Freaks and Geeks. There's a couple clips on Youtube, but they're just fragments and don't capture the whole thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIN8D3MSRPc&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoYUOTPcYTw

If you watch, that's MST3K's Joel as the DJ. The interleaved disco and D&D storylines is fucking magic. The whole show is great, really; but the last episode sealed it.

A world of its own
I sought refuge in the clouds
Dreams of yesteryear


+1 point for haiku blogger.

Dag

Perhaps I was the last person in the world to see this... it made me chuckle.

Tres bien

I think Steve's right, there seems to be a lot to do in Twilos. Actually I'm having fun getting way back to basics, where just getting some good- or normal- equipment is part of the mission. Carry on, you guys have done great thus far.

EDIT: As requested, the MJ Young page is now linked off the main DiD page. If MJY had spell lists, it'd be godly.

Dag

straight outta Compton:

I'm sorry for you
Simplicity and power
Yet all is not lost

I found this random Haiku rather fitting our current circumstances.

Thak

I understand.....I think you do too.
You'd have some kind of look on your face too.

I knew that Dragonlance, may his book be praised, had Sturm but I didn't know they had a Drang. Which book was Drang in? I mean I haven't read all of the Tales of the Lance, and Cousins of the Lance, or well, Heroes of the Lance was ok with Huma and that Minotaur......sweet.

ok, the cafe is clean.

Loss and struggle: a manifesto

So having things the PCs are 'supposed' to do is something I try to avoid. For the boss fights, usually I design a non-straight combat solution, that isn't 100% obvious but isn't totally ad hoc or nonsensical either.

We talked about this at your place Paul, so I feel okay saying it here to the group on DiD:B. Take for example, the final fight with Vrill/Croatius in DiD1. The straight combat approach was basically a poor one, and you all knew it. As a hint, I stopped combat, and had the NPC make some big statement and pause for your response. If Vrill launched into battle without giving you guys a chance, then that's a signal that straight combat should be satisfactory. But straight combat gets pretty boring, and I didn't want DiD1 to end with a bunch of useless blogrolls.

So the solution I had in mind was to use the Potion of Zelba on dead Sarah. I thought that would be satisfying- defeating Vrill with a potion, of all things, and raising the probability that Marivhon would have something to do with his final death, as Mar seemed the most invested. But I didn't want it all to hang on Mar, especially since he died early, so I dropped a lot of hints. I even asked every PC to post, stating what potions they had, without specifically saying to post only your healing potions. Lots of potion refs all around in my posts. I suggested that PCs start scavenging things, and look on other peoples char sheets.

But all-or-none solutions like that generally fail. An early example is the DiD1 gang against Mysterious X. MX showed up and again, paused and gave a speech and waited for you to act. The solution I had in mind was to free the valkyrie; and a couple PCs thought that would be a good idea too. Dave I think tried to cut the gold chain with his magic mace, and I said 'a blunt weapon is not effective at cutting the chain'. Then Mark I think tried to use a nonmagical edged weapon, and I said 'a nonmagical edged weapon is not effective'. Finally, everyone waited for Cinder to do something for days, with Shi Jukka and a modron making a bet about it, but with me trying to hint that Cinder, in one action that didn't involve a direct attack on MX, could save the day. Because Cinder had a magical sword. But nope, he didn't get it, he walked away, and so it went.

I want to make it clear that there's no blame there to be assigned. Maybe it's my fault for making combat too tough, or a solution too obscure, or maybe it's the PCs fault for not figuring it out. I don't think it's too fruitful to discuss that point though, as long as I try to keep things interesting, different, but not too obscure, and without serious permanent PC death as a consequence.

Anyway, so the lotus was added, partially just as treasure, partially as a red herring, but partially as a secondary solution. It turned out, by luck, to be the one that worked, and I'm still pretty satisfied with how DiD1 went down in the end. Rolling a white lotus was darn lucky, but I think it's kind of cool that a PCs-win end was achieved by a combination of brainpower, teamwork, and pure damn luck.

(The original solution, introduced way back in the first visit to the mirror world, involved raising Sarah yourself in the beginning by inserting all the magic lenses into a magic lamp, which Cinder did, and then playing the right magic keys on the magic piano to make a magic music light show &c. You can see why I dropped this pretty quickly from the design. It's complicated and stupid.)

...

Anyway, about the priest fight. Really, there was nothing you were supposed to do. I thought that either 1) not everyone would fail the save, or 2) even if they did, Thaka and Theo could pick off the priests, or KO enough to end the combat, or take the Ambassador hostage, or 3) once Thak went down that Theo could cast another illusion, or 4) that the PCs could hold Duggins hostage against Bekkers, or 5) that you'd get captured and we'd just move the game to Twilos.

There may have been other solutions. I'm not sure what Theo could have done to save you once everyone was out, but Mark's a smart guy and he's gamed for a long time, so I want to give him a chance to surprise me. Yeah, it wasn't great odds, and I would've done the same in his shoes, but you never know. So I storylined only at the very, absolute end. I could've had you guys wake up in the Gorgos fort jail, or on the trail back down to it, or on the boat, but those 're-starts' I decided would be less interesting than a brand new change of scenery, and one that would give you all firm control right from the start, with little chance of recapture or being killed, which the other options had a higher probability of.

I try to put myself in PCs' shoes and ask what they'd do. Hopefully, you try to put yourself in my shoes and ask 'how would I run this, if I were GM?' Is it fun, exciting, satisfying, story-rich, and interesting if the guards showed up and saved the day for you, let you all go, clap on the back, help us maintain order in town? (Maybe, but I wanted to get you out of Gorgos and give the game a bit more direction.) Or if you're all killed, throats slit and sacrificed when the priests knocked you out? (Clearly no.) Or if you face 4 1st level priests, who clearly would be no match for the party? You've all gamed forever, I hold you all to higher standards and abilities as players, and if you fail, well at least you failed when the odds were strongly against you.

I tried to make the priest hostage taking as PC-ruthless as I could, as I figured PCs will do just about anything to avoid losing their stuff. It's a situation which rarely comes up in gaming, so it was interesting to me for novelty's sake. Don't take it personally; I can understand your frustration, but that should be an in-game frustration. What you lost was some junk and some in-game pride maybe.

It should be obvious by now: my games are about loss and struggle. I find it really boring when PCs just sort of collect stuff and get better and better, and always save the day because what they need to do to save the day is relatively easy and uncomplicated. Yawn.

Loss and struggle. Sturm und drang. Even Dragonlance had it, and this ain't fuckin' Dragonlance.

paul

I'm not questioning your aptitude, I'm just not sure AT ALL, what else I was supposed to do. We got storylined. I mean that is ok. What really set me off was when you said you weren't trying to. You had to, everything went wrong. It just kinda sucks to sit here typing with my characters ear being threatened, fighting 4 3rd level priests nearly alone. It hurt even more to see the people get away with it, when the guards showed up.

I posted on mainpage. I'm trying....
Just think how I felt, my 4 friends.....HELD, by 4 3rd level priests. Then, we do some good stuff, and so the 3 priests get all uppity with the PCs when they come to and start...... Well you can read it again, and yeah we would have all had a lot to say if this had happened around a table.

huh, I would be up for a week of table top if anyone else has that kind of freetime, and endurance.

I went to my first Portland City Club meeting today. I heard Congressman Blumenhaeur talk for an hour and take questions.... It was cool. I also have no debt again... Things are good.

A new haiku

This will end badly
A smile on your face appears
Give me a second

...

Thanks Steve; someday we'll meet again at the Table. Shit, if we had been thinking, we coulda arranged for this New Year's...

...

This one is fantastic and poetic:

Look into my eyes
Like the gaze of the Cyclops
I see you looking


And:

I feel a bit ill
Another serious day
Tomorrow I die

Table Top

And of course, I'd be up for table top!

I'm ok you're ok.

Rob, this was much less offensive than the force cube delayed blast fireball.

We had choices. -These guys did offer their heads for the knockout.

As I was trying to say, the drug inducement felt a bit like sweeping, but hell, if we had no chance at trial, at least it saves us the legal bills.

I'm cool with Alcatraz. I just hope my recipes were dragon-attack proof. -It's kind of Theodore's big dream.

KT

I'd definitely like to meet up. Is the living room table free??? Can Judy make us cookies???

Dag

I love the game. What a fantastic escape!

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Rob, Thanks, Kudos, and keep it up! Sometimes we make shit happen. Sometime shit happens to us. Either way, it is fun to roll the boulder. I'm sure some constructive criticism could and should go both ways, but for the most part, this is amazing. that's my nickels worth.

I have been looking at the next year, and thinking about some vacation timing, and I wondered what others' plans are. I know you have the annual academic trip to vegas. Would anyone else be interested in gathering for some gaming? I think I could make a weekend trip out of it... DiD live or some such thing. I don't know where it fits on anyone else's priority list. In fact, I don't even know where it fits on my priority list, but I could really go for some old school table top action.

I would be willing and would love to host in Denver if anyone is interested in coming here, but it would seem to make more sense going somewhere where some of the crew is already assembled (Portland/San Fran or Michigan). Justin, remind me where you are these days?

Any thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea? Impractical? Perhaps we could tack it on to the end of someone's business/academic trip? I'm just thinking/dreaming out loud.

Again

Tut, noted. Obviously all the poems and frescoes and mage/jester/girl thing is flavor text and has little to do with what actually goes on in the game itself. Puzzles have mostly been removed, except that I try to make 'boss fights' more interesting than straight up blogrolling. Been largely unsuccessful, but I continue to try.

Thanks for the words of support; I'll try to provide some more obvious avenues and direction. Steve, you have just as much right to complain as any of us. Actually, I think I've got the least right to complain.

Paul and Mark, your specific complaints are really just in-game questions, and so I have addressed them there. However, the fact that you posted them here says to me that there are out-of-game aspects to these questions you're unhappy with. Mark says "whatever, let's move on", but Paul expressed dissatisfaction, and I'd guess finds these issues more serious? Reading between the lines, it sounds like the out-of-game complaint is again questioning whether I have the aptitude to GM a game. I'll assume you guys are just venting and bitching, unless you tell me you want to revisit this issue.

As a first pass: the fight didn't go as 'planned', which itself is sort of interesting, and you were all captured, stripped of equipment, and knocked out. At which point I really have no choice but to storyline you.

Furthermore, given the nature of how the blog game has to be run, having a 'trial' for you guys would've been slow and boring. It has seemed to me that the game works best in episodes, which has required some storylining from episode to episode. Besides, oh come on, there are dead priests and blood on your weapons and 'reputable' witnesses!

But, I really have no obligation to explain the particular psychology or choices made by a guard captain. You can accept out of game that I simulated said captain, weighed the evidence, thought about the situation from his perspective and acted accordingly. You can complain about the ultimate effects of that in-game, as expected. But to post here- well, it comes across as you accusing me of bad GMing. I'm getting a little sick of it; are you trying to provide feedback of some kind? It's sort of working, but the form it takes leaves me cold. And ugh, should I point out each time you suck and fail as players? (This is what I meant, Tut, by 'references provided upon request'...) I'd prefer not to, and have resisted so far, just because I think it's fuel to the fire rather than constructive.

Rather I'd just prefer to post game stuff on the main page and advance things through, and post pictures of tripod fish here on the DiD:Bitch page. As usual, Blogger Haiku knows just what to say:

Be still and listen
Will I make it out of here?
How was your day mom?

KT

I don't really care, I'm happy just to be playing. IMO Rob's the one doing all the work, so I don't feel like I have much room to complain, but then again I'm new, so take my comments as you will.

The only request I would make is that we keep complicated plot things to a minimum. I post a lot from work. Between work, women, studying for the CPA exam, friends and other stuff, I don't have time to decipher complicated puzzles about lotus seeds and 3 murals depicting a wizard, jester, and musician (or whatever). I can do simple puzzles, like re-arranging letters into a "secret password," but I just don't have the time or inclination to follow complicated stuff.

I'm all for storyline and plot, just try to keep it pop-up book simple, if you know what I mean. This isn't like the old days where we could devote 20 hours Saturday and Sunday and get completely immersed in the game.

The main problem I have with the puzzles are they turn blogging into non-interactive gaming. We can't talk about stuff over the table. So each person has to take time figuring stuff out, then read what everyone else has posted, and then try and contribute. It's like 5 blind guys trying to write a book--sometimes they right the exact same thing as the next, sometimes they miss what the other guy wrote, sometimes they write something completely off-topic because they aren't really sure what the topic is anymore. Then, it's easier to log in, post a few ideas, and then just wait for someone with more time or inclination to post (Mark/Paul) to figure stuff out, while those of us that maybe have less time/inclination (me/Chris/Dave) just check every once in awhile to see if we can start blogrolling again, or if there is something really simple and obvious which we can contribute, which of course there isn't (since Mark/Paul would have already gotten anything obvious or simple). So then we just turn into free-riders, waiting around and letting someone else carry it. Did I explain myself well? I know what I'm trying to say but I'm not sure if it comes across.

Personally, I need something less open-ended. If you said we end up in this prison city, and here's 3 options for your next move: A, B, C, that would be great. Instead, if we get dropped in a city with no guidance, I'm much more likely to just wait for someone else to suggest something, and either vote yea or nay. I just don't have the mental availability to read every word, every nuance, piece the plot puzzle together, and determine that our next step is in fact to go to the Fiery Goat and ask for Hogarth in order to learn more about the mechanical spider and specifically the priests of Amon Ra and the juiced Prince. I'm just going to miss stuff like that. On the other hand, if we found a journal that said "I just paid Hogarth, at the Fiery Goat, to keep his mouth shut...I wonder if he will...that mechanical spider really scared him," I WOULD be able to piece that together :)

[All personal references aren't meant to offend. If I got someone's role backwards/wrong just roll with it, I just used names to illustrate my point and I probably haven't played long enough or paid enough attention to be correct in my assessments.]

Can I weasel another 151 xp? I'm at 3850/4000 for 3rd level...

A minor bitchslap.

I'll buy that the Ambassador had a lot more pull than us, but it's stuff like: "You're given a sedative to shut you up and decrease your food intake- all of you are, in fact." that really gets me.

What kind of town guard is going to spend that kind of cash on drugging a few guys that may or may not have commited a crime? Isn't the brig enough?

I just think it's a bit heavy-handed. I mean, if you really wanted us to be on Twilos, maybe you should have just started us there.

But, whatever. It's cool. Let's get out of this Twilos place. -First, let's find Kurt Russel!

Thak

um, any sort of investigation would have shown we were less than guilty very easily...

I would like to know what happened to me. How was I tried, was there any opportunity for us to defend ourselves. If there is no justice in the land then I think I would like to know that as a cavalier. It really seems like we got screwed. You said you weren't trying to storyline us, well I would say that it certainly seems we were stotylined.

I'm not really happy with what went down. I'm actually less happy about it then I was with Hello. I would like to know a little more about how this trial or lack there of was handled.

Prisoners of Twilos

Yeah, sounds like a plan. In retrospect, stashing the 31 Flavors in a super-high security vault was a great idea.

You need a plan to escape from the Prison City.

Well, I figured, given the way things went, it came down to your word vs. the Ambassador's, and he had a fake Prince with him. Plus, the guards were sort of distracted with other things going on. You did what you could Theodore.

Now a new adventure awaits.

Back to Gorgos.

Well, I think that Captain was an ass. He didn't seem to trust either of us, but I doubt the Ambassador was fleeced. And his pal did vouch for us. I thought we'd get some chance to defend ourselves. I tried to give him all of the info I could and didn't put up a fight.

Just trying to do the right thing. Same reason we followed the Prince.

I am just hoping I can still get my recipes. I did go through the effort of depositing an extra copy just in case, but I didn't really plan on a dragon destroying the city and being robbed all at once. Theodore can't just let that go. I've gotta go back.

H2: What the fuck (here we go again remix)

Okay guys, I'm trying to avoid a 'Hello Airport' thing again. So before you 'Ed out' on me, please try a few things in Twilos and let me know if, out-of-game, you're having zero fun.

I wanted to start this campaign in the slums or a prison setting, but thought it might be more interesting to give you a sense of the outer world first. This is different in Hello Airport in that's the real world, so real world stuff applies, and it should be easier to escape. Plus, no Vrill, and plus, you can train here.

Yeah, all your equipment is gone, but you were 1st level. Hopefully you'll find that Twilos has a lot to offer in a few different ways.

Still though, if you get the same Hello feeling of suckatude, please let's talk about it before people just up and drop out of the game. You don't gotta be poor for too long.

Blogger Haiku:
Once in a while
'Nun for you' said the bishop
Here we go again

I tip my hat but beg to differ

Almost the most-frequent poster, sir.

Bad Cheerios.

Hey dude, you offered your noggin, not me. Sometimes we get knocked out.

That move did kind of surprise me. I was just trying to leverage our situation. Not go on a solo adventure.

Anyway, don't worry. I'm probably the most frequent poster of us all.

Dag

Who pissed in KT's cheerios?

Ehrm

Yeah, sorry KT. Doing what I can do wrap this up, quickly, fairly, and interestingly. We'll see how much success I have.

No one cares about Calc 2.

You are now wasting all of our time. So either post a whole lot quickly, or drag this out over the weekend, cause I'll be gone from Friday nite until Sunday nite.

Theo's solo adventure

I'm sure everyone is waiting with bated breath to find out what happens, so hopefully Mark will be posting with supra-daily frequency.

Calc 2

I did terrible during my calc two class, but I rocked the final. The modified Mike might have really reamed me.

oh

Work-
Imac PowerPC 750 Chip 333mhz!!
OS 10.3.9
safari 1.3.2 1024x768

Home is a sony desktop I'll have to look....it's firefox. xp

Tripod fish are weird.

I don't trust fish in general since they don't blink, but I really don't trust hermaphroditic fish.

The modified Mike is to smack the student all sudden like and be like 'well what did you think of that, huh?'

Not so sure on the ethics of the Mike/mod-Mike grading procedure. Sometimes a student who sucked suddenly gets it, and aces the final. Or a student who knew it all along has a head cold and a bad test taking day. Maybe your students up there are different, but the kids down here were obsessive grade computers.

But whatever- congratulations on getting the masters! What a big ass relief. We'll celebrate when you're down in a few weeks.

Yeah!

Congrats, Dave!

Steve, I think you were thinking of the Twisted Rick.

KT

Grats Dave! WTG buddy.

I thought the modified Mike involved 2 donkeys, a pound of coke, 3 midgets and one of those 2 person standing slingshots...hmm.

Descent into Daves: Table Talk

Hey all - sorry for not posting so much lately, but it's finals week, and there's ben some other shit. Sigh. Coming to an end, but now there's some grading.

I think I'm doing a modified-Mike maneuver, where I look at all the finals, assess them subjectively as to the grade, and then end up giving everyone the grade they deserve. In the last three years of teaching I've had ONE student come to me the next term and ask to see their final, so I think I'm okay...

And it's the modified-Mike maneuver, because I'm taking the final into consideration, and I'll put some sort of subjective grade into the system, and if anyone asks to see their exam I'll say 'oopsie - left it at home. Can you come back tomorrow and I'll bring it in?' and then grade THAT one. The Mike maneuver was to not read their finals at all.

Anyway. I have a Masters degree now. It's official. Yay, I would say, except I'm mostly too tired for the chortling and the joy.

Also - I'm running an Intel Core Dup MacBook, OSX 10.4, Safari, with a 1280x800 screen. At school I've got some crappy PC with a crappy screen that I use sometimes.

And it's DiD that made me upgrade laptops more than anything - this site is so graphics-intensive that I need the larger screen size to correctly appreciate all the subtle nuances that is the glory of our geeky gaming blog.

King Tut

REFERENCES REQUESTED, PEACE

A short retort

In response to Paul's plea below, I'll add a semi-appropriate out-of-game comment of my own.

I'm going slow here, trying hard not to storyline you guys through a situation you historically have not done so well at. (References provided upon request.)

You could return the favor, and try hard not to get your friends killed.

KTHX

EDIT: I'd say that the tripod fish thinks we're the strange ones.

Not much is known about tripod fish. I guess they're too busy walking away from fishing lines and the like.

Paul

hey awake people....
kill these assholes will ya, and don't let them push you around......
You outnumber them and they are hurt and out of spells.....
Thak is NG to answer your question, but she's not gay to refute Steve's assertion.

Of course.

I wonder what it's thinking.

Maybe: "I am one freaky-ass fish!"

R

I've got a big-ass laptop, 1920 x 1200 res. IE. Win XP.

EDIT: The tripod fish calmly walks away into the sunset.

Not me.

I'm 1280 x 1024, with Firefox.

Computer Power

While looking at our stats and such on the blogflux page today, one of the sections caught my eye: The section where it breaks down page visitors by what screen resolution they are using and what browser they are using. It got me wondering what everyone is using to check the blog. So, if you don't mind, share what kind of computer you are using. I'll start

From Work:
Dell Laptop running XP using IE6 1280 x 1024

From Home:
older iMac OSX Safari with 1024 x 768

or old Powerbook OSX Safari at 1152 x 768

I'm dying to know who has the pipe hitting 1536 x 960 Display!

I know... only a professional geek wonders about and asks these kinds of questions... but then again... I am online playing Dungeons and Dragons via blogger.

A quiet moment

I feel great today
I am an organ donor
A sparkling treasure

Rob

Justin- understandable. Finals time is berserk. Actually, the time 'tween Thanksgiving and Christmas is always crazy, and I'm in a mad rush to finish a lot of crap and try to remember to buy presents and holiday cheer and all that BS.

Mark- I think what you've been doing with Phant Force is good so far. It might be hard to scale up illusion magic in a great way, but PF so far has been fairly useful in distraction and confusion.

Steve- absolutely. I applied for a public policy fellowship myself, but, uh, other job opportunities might preclude my involvement. I'm definitely much more interested in the bigger world, which comes with my larger speaking voice that has evolved in the last few years. With greater power, greater responsibility and all that.

I've got a friend who's been a sci policy advisor to Ted Kennedy for the last year or so, done through the AAAS. She loved it but found it ultimately frustrating- working a year on something, tightly crafting it, then having the Pres just veto it without reading it. I like a bit more control over my creations personally. My own studies have taken a few steps into the bigger world, and Mark's always have been there... next time we see each other, I'll tell you all about some of the crazy stuff I'm into these days. Found an interesting opportunity that might allow me to connect with previous artistic ventures also.

Back to the game...

Down but not Out...

I'm still around, I've just been ridiculously buys last few days- last couple weeks of classes + exams, y'know? I'll try to catch up soon and at least keep posting Blog Rolls. I'll definitely be back to regular posting in two weeks, but should be long before then.

Later

Phantastic

Yeah, I thought about doing something very tricky, but it seems Phantasmal Force is really small. -I still can't figure out these effect sizes. Also, even if I could, I could make a prince stand up, but the old prince would stll be laying there. I can't hide him.

We've also got Azoth who isn't held.

As for politics, I think that's commendable. I follow them closer than most, I think. I've seriously considered going into science policy rather than academics in the future. If you ask me, it's time well spent. As for your state, I think you've got the first serious black presidential contender. I really hope it's Obama over Hillary for the Democratic nomination. I think a campaign between Obama and Guiliani would be refreshingly intelligent.

On a side note, I've got a cousin who recently got a job in D.C. It's crazy, it's one of those where he can't tell us what he does.

KT

I'm starting to get really into politics. I want to learn about the inner workings of The Hill. One of my friends is a lawyer in DC, and one of her friends is a big time lobbyist. She said that he knows some good sites and sources of information, so I'm hoping he'll share (she said he would).

I figure now that I'm 30, I need to expand my knowledge and interests beyond computer games and stuff like that. I really need something new and interesting to focus on.

Nonhumans

Yes, mage multi-classers can wear armor. Unfortunately, nope, you can't 'abandon' a class if you multiclass. Tut, what you're doing is called 'dual-classing', and is only available to humans.

Actually I kind of hate the demi-human vs human thing in 1E. Nonhumans are great at 1st level (look at Drow females for the worst example), but then have level caps and elves can't be raised. It's just a dumb way to try to balance things out... make one group great at low level and bad at high level, and another group just the opposite.

In fact, the whole elf +1 to hit w/ swords and bows, 90% immune to sleep/charm is really awful. Elf thief is sort of the way to go in 1E: no level caps and the +1 dex and skill bonuses are sweet.

And elves are immune to ghoul paralysis (but not other forms of holding/paralyzation/stunning).

KT

Yeah elves are really powerful, for no apparent reason. They get the armor benefit in Neverwinter Nights 2, which I think is edition 3.5. I think the most powerful would be to abandon the fighter class after 1st level...that would allow advancement as fast as a pure mage, but with bow spec and plate mail. I'm not sure if Rob would allow that via the abandonment route.

I considering doing just this, but then I saw how fast druids advance , and without the potion rule I think we'll need a lot more healing, so I wanted to make sure we had enough healers (this is before I knew Dag would play a healer).

I'm still tempted by the above plan, especially now that Dag is a healer.

Threnody question about armor

On the MJ Young page it says:

Elves who are multiclassed as magic users may cast spells in whatever armor is appropriate to the other classes.

Yeah? Really? I gots to get me some of that chain mail, then!

Multiclassing

Dag, as a multi-class, you get the best saves and THACO available. That means you get cleric saves and fighter THACO.

The charts are on the player ref page here:
http://www.didreference.blogspot.com/

Down side is, xp is halved and you get half hp whenever you advance. Also, there are level caps.

...

Statements like 'the Ambassador uses OOG knowledge' sometimes get me in trouble. I'm clearly kidding. The Ambassador is a smart guy and knows who all of you are, clearly, from prior pre-game experience. So it's not a cheesy move. Trying to minimize the cheese in this campaign. We'll see how long it lasts.

Dag - Questions

Sorry, its been a while since I have played a split class...

DO I save as a cleric or as a fighter?

same question for THACO...

Hiro-Hero

I have watched it... at least most of it. Hiro is a great character, but they write him strangly... it is perhaps mildy culturally incensitive at best. They write him as the stereotypical "awkward and naive" japanese tourist... but they try to excuse it by making him honest and good hearted.... I dunno, I think you'd see what I mean if you saw it.

The coolest part about Hiro is the actor's real life. He is a 3D animator with some pretty heavy hitting credits to his name, and some how he got interested in acting and now... well, he works as both.

The show is.... meh. it is sort of entertaining, but they take tooooo long to deliver on any sigificant plot points. and yet I watch........

can I get a hot dog? (EDIT: By . . . Paul? NOT DAVE)

That link is awesome.

I think it's funny that the office of the president has a budget larger that the consumer protection agency.

I would have seriously thought we got more of our taxes from business. That should work out to corporations spending something like 200 billion for taxes. That's a very rough number, but still that's not really that much to cut from a budget. It would also save the companies a shit load of money to not have to deal with taxes. I'm amazed that none of the left or the right has talked about the advantages of cutting corporate taxes out entirely.

Thanks Rob you just made my Christmas....

oh and all the people I know how are socially inept love heroes, I haven't seen it.

Nuetral good = fag

nothing more to say really.

A Hiro is you

Whoa, so a gamer is a major character in an NBC prime time show.

The show is Heroes, which I haven't seen, but heard good things about.

One of the main guys is 'Hiro', a Japanese gamer. He's got a faux-blog in which everything is described in gamer terms... mainly video games, with comics and anime also. He talks about having to 'level up', having a sword from the future with +4 to dexterity, and stuff. Haven't read much of it, but he describes the girls he likes in terms of Chrono Trigger/Cross characters. But he made himself a D&D character sheet, and apparently he's a 1st level neutral good Kensai. (With two 18s.)

That blows my mind.

Here it is, if ya care:
http://blog.nbc.com/hiro_blog/

Anyone watch this?

Reading more of the blog... wow. This is from NBC?

Death and Taxes

This is the most impressive layout of where our money goes that I've ever seen.

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/9410862/

Ask and ye shall get (as long as it's not $24000 ye are asking for)

Well there you have it. Corporate taxes are 10% of the revenue, looks like.

Via: http://www.house.gov/budget/fedgovbuck030905.pdf
which I found from the almighty metafilter:
http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/26704

which also links to the entire 2006 budget if you're curious.

...

EDIT: Nevermind, I see your post now.

Yeah, SF minimum wage is $9.14:

http://www.ci.sf.ca.us/site/mayor_page.asp?id=46399

Locally regulated min wage is a fine idea. I'm all for towns and states doing what the fed can't and shouldn't do.

Paul

ya know I would really like to see a break down of where our governments gets its revenue and where it spends it. It's silly how hard it is to find out answers to simple things like that.

I do think we would lose a shitload of money if we stopped taxing businesses. The arguement that they are individuals I believe is fundamentally based on them being taxed.

I was thinking about the minimum wage last night because I didn't really post how I felt about it. Well here it is. I think the minimum wage level is very dependant on the region of the country. I think the current federal minimum wage is something near 5.15 an hour. I don't think that the federal wage should be something like 9, but it should probably be higher than 5.15. Oregon has it set to 7.50 and our economy has been doing quite well actually. I think it could support moves to a higher level without much of a problem if done incrementally. I haven't noticed inflation as a result. I would be curious to see a breakdown of corporate profits by region as well to see if all the states that have a 5.15 wage somehow provide the profits for companies enough that they can pay 7.50 in wages someplace else, where they don't really make money. That would be neat to see.

Anyway, nice to have you at the table Rob.

Mark, I've got a few things going on in my head right now, I've been thinking about system stuff and I'm reading what's posted I just don't have the mojo to do guys and spell writeups right now. Long sentansce.es

Hell, I haven't even finished my map or written up the system I've been using for 3 years.

Weapons for a holy warrior

Welcome to the story, Dag. Go ahead and start killing rats on the main page.

As for gods, so far we're sort of running a Greek thing here, oddly. But please go ahead and make up your own. Last game, gods were arbitrarily decided more for humor's sake than anything.

As for two-staff fighting, yeah, strictly speaking you want to fight with two bo sticks or two maces/rods. Maces/rods is probably the best way to go. However, as bo sticks are smaller weapons, only one weap prof is required, and another for spec. They only do 1d6 SM, 1d3 L damage though.

Maces come in on-hand (footman's) and off-hand (horseman's) sizes. The footman's does 1d6+1 SM, 1d6 L, and the horseman's does 1d6/1d4. They're two different weapons though, so if you want spec in both, it's double the WPs. You can't get extra attacks with an off-hand weapon, so you might not want to spec in horseman's. 'Rods' act as 'maces' for proficiency's sake, so you could fight with two iron or wooden short-staves and call them maces/rods.

Make sense?

Of course, if by 'holy warrior' you mean Paladin, well you ain't getting spec in the first place, so it's moot.

EDIT: Er, just keep spec in battle staff. It does 1d6, sure, it's cool.

...

Re: DaVinci Code business.

Yeah, and they're wearing each other's clothes too. The book was schlock but I'll admit a fast, fun read. It was written to be a movie: simple plot, few characters, movie pacing including half-hearted twist towards the end. The whole painting-Mary bride-Jesus-grail thing is a cool idea, although I don't think the idea was originally Brown's.

Time to change the locks.

I touched myself good
I wet the bed over you
I murdered for you

KT

The problem with abolishing corporate taxes, etc. is that the government would be completely broke. It's hard to talk about projects, etc., and then cut funding drastically.

I am a classical conservative. That means I like small government. So I am not so much for free markets/capitalism as I am against letting the government muck about with stuff. Nowadays I'd probably be considered a liberal, but that's looking at it from the wrong point of view--I'm not about allowing individuals liberty, I'm about preventing the government from acting to take away people's liberty, because I want the government to be very small and passive. So, try to look at my posts less with the opinion that I affirmatively support certain things, and more with the opinion that I affirmatively want to prevent government from being active.

On another note, increased legislation (Sarbanes-Oxley) is currently killing the American capital markets. IPO's listing on the NYSE are drastically lower than pre-SarBox; the London and Hong Kong exchanges are getting dramatically more listings (because they dont have SarBox). I can't even imagine how bad the NYSE (and thus, our tax base) would suffer if some of the laws we talked about were enacted.

The problem with all this talk of cutting tax rates, etc. is that we are already running a massive deficit. Now is not the time to cut revenues, now is the time to cut expenses--by preventing goverment from being active. I would support cutting revenues in order to "starve" government, but we would just borrow more money, so I'm sure it wouldn't work.

Four arms?

Two staffs? Aren't staffs a two-handed weapon? I think you want bo sticks or something.

Welcome back, Dag!

Dag the Holy Cannon

I apologize for my delay in joining the game. I have a laundry list of reasons why, but who gives a shit. I'm back.

Please allow me to introduce my new PC.

Dag is the half-breed bastard child of a human sailor and an elvish pub wench. He is a fighter and a holy man. Please be patient with me as I re-learn the cleric stuff. Rob, please feel free to work me into the story when it is convenient for you. Also (maybe offline) could you help me figure out a diety? or can I just make one up? I would like to make one up if that is cool. I would like to fight with two staffs - the ambidextrous thing. How many WP's does it take to do this? I am assuming two WP's per hand for spec. Does it cost me anything for ambidextrousness?

anyway... I am pretty well caught up on the story... see you soon.

Dude looks like a lady.

I just took a good look at the last supper up above. I haven't read or watched the Da Vinci Code, but to me, that person to Jesus' right is a chick.

Anyway, I am always up for Socratic debate. I also feel very strongly about making my position be known, through voting, donations, talking, whatever. If I am not heard, people might assume my position doesn't exist, or doesn't matter.

As for a flat tax, I like it. However, the rich actually don't avoid as many taxes as you might think, Paul. Their taxes actually make up a big chunk of revenue. P. Diddy said something like: "I pay something like 50% taxes, but that's fine with me, because it means I am rich." Also, business taxes provide a lot of revenue. Of course, all these taxes could be worked into a flat tax, but I am not sure where it would even out.

I think a simple graduated income tax, and no other taxes, would be nice. I don't think we should tax folks below the poverty line. -We'll just have to repay it in other ways.

Also, thanks for paying for my funding, Paul. Anything you'd like to see in particular?

BTW: I am still looking for more spell ideas on DiDfactory. -Ed thought Nael's Magical Trace was awesome, Paul.

The wellspring flowth ever still

Re: deleted text.

Well, yeah, I meant what I said, sort of. Of course it wasn't specifically targeted at you Paul, but to all of us. Or mainly to myself. For the others' sake, in essence I said: arguing about politics on DiDTT is sort of useless, as we're old enough now and smart enough to exert force and cause change in the world if we try hard enough. And regardless of what you do, please post on DiD, because I'm liking where things are going and I think this is shaping up to be a cool campaign.

But I deleted it because it occurred to me after posting, that some of my ideas about things become more solidified by DiDTT sparring. Paul and Chris may not have changed my mind, but these discussions certainly caused me to think more about these sorts of issues. It seemed to me that this was an awful waste of brainpower, us yelling at each other, when it's our congress we should be yelling at if we want to effect change. (Pretty sure that's 'effect' there, not 'affect'.)

I've long said that the reason I work on- er, what I work on, is because I'm not smart enough to solve real problems like poverty or racism. But that doesn't excuse intellectual laziness when it's time to vote. Up until very recently I used to shrug at economics, local politics, all that stuff... thought it was 'of the temporal world' and not worth my time. I'm starting to think otherwise. Starting to realize that not caring about the outer world, not voting, not voicing opinions when my fiance's family's dinner guest says that the middle east should be bombed into glass- that all this is laziness that makes the world worse by my inaction.

So if you'll excuse the expression, I thought initially that what all this TT amounted to was intellectual masturbation- solipsistic pointless fun but not proactive or pro-creative. (Bringing out the big metaphors here.) After making that decision, I recanted, as I'm now somewhat more informed. Hell, I know who Milton Friedman was, sort of. Didn't know that last week.

There are problems with our system. I'm unconvinced that a flat tax or flat welfare is the solution. I'm not totally opposed, mainly because they require less bureaucracy, and I think bureaucracy is the world's great evil; Hannah Arendt was right.

But honestly I don't know what to do. Radically changing the system might improve things- but things like this (i.e., anything involving government or corporation) tend towards glut and corruption in any form, so anything you do might be only a short-term fix. Might make things worse though, of course.

Hard hard problems. In the end, I guess that's why I'm a capitalist. If you're poor, it's easier to work to make yourself rich than to make everyone rich. Far fewer variables, it's just an easier problem to solve.

...

Just to clean up, ya I know that Apollo and Manhattan were government projects. My point, poorly made, was: where are our Apollos today? The big government plan is, apparently, reorganization of the middle east. The genome project was partially government, but a private company did it faster and cheaper. Look at space travel: it's had to become private. It's really not feasible to vote for both space exploration and more welfare.

I'd love to have government funding to do my work, but somehow it's never worked out. Gotten lots of private money, and I think that's the way of the future. It's certainly the way of the past. The NIH didn't really even exist- at least not as the major biomed funding source- until after WWI. Before that, science was all private. May be returning to that, unless the general cycle of domestic-foreign-d-f-... continues (withdrawal from Iraq and the glut of veterans might boost up the NIH again).

...

Er, I'm done for now. Oddly, it's more fun to hide behind an NPC and post something like Ezekiel's thing below. Apprentice Steve and potionguild.blogspot.com, RIP.

I saw that!

-You're going to pass laws on all this stuff? Based on what moral or ethical principles, exactly?- heh, we already have, I just don't think they are very good.

Do you think this is a moral question? Well maybe, I don't think our economic system in this country is just. Will it ever be complete and consistant.. Math......Justice...? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean I'm just happy with how things are.

Laws exist on almost all this stuff, on what authority, if you like, were they founded on? I would think we would be able to found new ones on either that authority or invent a better authority. I haven't really said what I would do. I could do that somewhat now.

I am generally for a flat tax. I am generally for the abolishment of business taxes, and thereby their right to political speech. I am for the removal off all tax credits. I like a straight flat tax. I think the number would have to be studied. 15% is commonly talked about. I am against any form of double taxation. If your parents get 100k and pay the taxes on it then they should be able to give it to whomever they want. The recipient should not have to pay taxes on it. So I am for the ending of inheritance taxe, death tax whatever, marriage and child credits. I think that when we stop taxing business, we should continue to use tariffs and excise taxes as political tools internationally.

----But I support having a class of people who are obscenely rich. Why? Because big projects take big money, and the world's ills require big projects to solve. Manhattan, Apollo project-size in scope.----

Those were government projects, silly. A point is big government projects, are in fact paid for more by the poor, than by the rich. Especially the rich who inherited their wealth, who pay for nothing. The rich tend to avoid taxes. Sure, Gates is doing some good things. He got some of that money because Microsoft uses a lot of underpaid engineers. Microsoft also is a near monopoly, and should have had it's corporate charter dissolved.

---think that Steve's exactly right: adding new legislation will create a ton of new lawsuits and people who can successfully 'game' the system. That's how some stockbrokers, accountants, and lawyers do so well- they game the system, exploiting loopholes---

That's the problem with our current system. I like a flat tax because there would be no gaming.

--It's easy to imagine that, despite salary caps, people could have more than one job. Or hire friends and family to pick up extra paychecks. Or just receive lots of great expensive 'gifts'.---

Flat tax. I'm against personally limiting wages. I think that freedom, in a sense, should prevail. I do think that it's bad corporate governance to have large pay disparities within a company, that can hardly be justified at all.

I'm not going to get mad, about what you removed from your post. I read it and you're not the first person to say that to me. I don't think what a lot of people spend their time doing is important either. I did post on the main board BTW. I think it's funny when people are socialists or even communists when it comes to how the government should treat them, just not other people. Universities should be helped by the state, government should fund research and hand away patents to corporations. Rob and Mark want grants that essentially I pay for. They don't pay for it because they get paid by people like me essentially.

Commie.

The rich need hugs too. Plus, ancient machines!

Paul, just to re-iterate, I agree: Pell Grants and the Marshall Plan are fantastic, successful programs.

However, they're both short-term projects with specific goals and spending targets. Quite different from "here's $24,000 a year for life for being American".

(Also, while I don't know much about how much reconstruction funding is going to Iraq and Afganistan, I know that Pell Grant funding has been cut, and funding levels have been capped for quite a while now, regardless of inflation. I think pumping more $$ into this kind of program is a better plan than the Friedman-Godfrey Plan.)

I think it's important that Friedman himself balked at his own suggestion, when it was proposed to congress. He would support his own idea, only if there was also a radical restructuring- a nullification, I think- of the existing welfare system.

Thus *his* idea, which we may or may not be arguing about here, was NOT that everyone should just get some cash. His idea, I think, was that the current welfare system should be replaced with something much simpler. In other words, he was proposing some sort of welfare reform, nothing more, nothing less.

...

Payscales for CEOs mainly reflect responsibility. If you're on the board of a company worth billions of dollars, you want only the best at the helm. So paychecks get high. I think it's more gross that big-league sports stars and actors get paid even more for their dog-and-pony dance routines.

But I support having a class of people who are obscenely rich. Why? Because big projects take big money, and the world's ills require big projects to solve. Manhattan, Apollo project-size in scope. And the very very rich have a long tradition of multi-million dollar philanthropy. Howard Hughes, Bill Gates, and Rockefeller, for example. One of the main reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing today is because Howard Hughes was so rich, that he gave lots of money to make a private medical research funding organization. By all accounts I've heard, the Gates Foundation is a top-notch charity. Mainly because one guy got so rich he could actually afford to help, not the hobo outside the liquor store, but fuckin' Africa.

Governments, it's turning out, might not be the best sources for funding large social projects like this. Look at the stem cell debacle- the states are having to make their own mini-NIHs just to fund stem cell research, which is a fantastic idea. Or at least, a fantastic work-around.

I think that Steve's exactly right: adding new legislation will create a ton of new lawsuits and people who can successfully 'game' the system. That's how some stockbrokers, accountants, and lawyers do so well- they game the system, exploiting loopholes
(because in the absolute limit, no system can be consistent and complete).

It's easy to imagine that, despite salary caps, people could have more than one job. Or hire friends and family to pick up extra paychecks. Or just receive lots of great expensive 'gifts'. You're going to pass laws on all this stuff? Based on what moral or ethical principles, exactly?

...

We've talked at each other for a while now, and it looks like most of us are running out of steam. I know I am.

EDIT: Eh, I had some stuff here that came off kind of bitchy. Deleted. 'Sall good.
...

Normally I say that I'd never want to work on anything different than what I do. But there's a report in this week's Nature on the function of the most ancient mechanical computer, the Antikythera Device. Whoa.

You can see I've got an ancient tech/automata fetish from the game, right? Wish I knew more about the history of ancient automata from pre-Jesus times up to Versailles. Anyone have reading suggestions, please offer.

You can read about it in Nature, or the NY Times, or Wikipedia, or you could just go to Metafilter and browse all three:
http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/56596

Metafilter provided me with this gem, which is a great example of bizarre tech:
http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/11/dog_power.html

(There's probably some connection here with all the progressive labor law discussion going on too, I guess.)

Paul has an Axe he is Shy.

It seems like the sum of the idea here I don't like is that somehow the money that Walmart kids get is earned. It seems like the money I get is earned, but If I ask for more.....well, I need to earn it, still. If I got a raise.....if the whole country got a raise, well we are asked what we have done to earn it. How is it so hard for me to earn 40 an hour when its so easy for someone else to earn 5000 an hour. Is it possible that the system that allows this is somehow not a good thing?

All money owned, how equitably it is owned is important. How the people involved with production of a product are treated says a lot about the health of an economy. I liked Marks idea of Ecomentalism, or whatever he called it.

So, Rob

What's the evidence that free money cures poverty? Any precedent at all?

Thats what you said.

You asked for an example, I gave you 2. ¥ou said that they were off subject when I gave you what you asked for. I told you you didn't really want these examples.....and you got mad at me for doing it and said I was second guessing your motives. I have not addressed your motives at all. I have acurately predicted your response to the answer given to your question. An answer you discarded, as not quite right. Ok I'll assume you want to understand....What exactly? I want to understand why some people think that it's ok to allow, or even encourage that one person to be treated worse than another?

If you prefer a meritocracy, how close do you think we are to one? Also what changes could be made in our existing system to get to where you might like it to be. If we are somewhat a meritocracy, how is the merit expressed? I think basically we are a plutocracy, an oligarchy, with a dash of kleptocracy, so it appears to be just.



What are we really talking about. It's a Chorus now with me and you. What are we talking about.
I'm a baritone.

Me, I think people need to be treated more fairly. I think it's unfair that anyone working in a company can be paid more than 100 times, or 1000, what the lowest paid employee makes. Just a number I throw out there and I'm comfortable with that. If the lowest paid employee makes 24k then someone else is limited to 240k. I think that it is well within the domain of our government to enact a law like that or something like it with slightly different numbers. It's basically how Costco works right now, and they seem to do alright.

I think that the rich do not pay enough in taxes. Have you ever seen a rich persons tax form? I haven't, but there must be a reason they pay tax lawyers year after year to help them out, and the rumor is it's so they can avoid just about any taxation, if they have a smart lawyer. So I am for changing tax law, or at least enforcing it.

I think it's sick to say that Sam Walton earned the money his family now controls. He certainly didn't earn it all on his own. It was earned with some other people, and I doubt they got what he got. I bet he earned some of it by making illegal deals, just a bet. I doubt if you were in a party adventuring with sam you'd have let him walk off with almost all the treasure, just because he had the map. Average CEO pay is grotesque in this country. Companies aren't really doing anything about it, I do think it's unhealthy for our economy, as such I think it's our governments responsiblity to act, if someone doesn't make it a more just system, then someone else will. I think that if we wanted to as a country we could make the minimum wage far more equitable. I think it would hurt the pocket books of some poor people to do this , but I think overall it would be for the best. I think it would be possible to do with less inflation that assumed. I think the reason it doesn't get done is because wealthy people oppose it and they to some extant to manage misinformation campaigns. I can't prove this to you. I think it's obvious. What are my motivations....hrm. There's a part of me that wants to say that motivations are needed to deny reality. They are not needed to acknowledge it. Yeah I like that. I might think about that a bit, but I don't think I will really need to because it seems true, understood even. Thats part of my motivation, it's to find out what I really think, and find out a little more truth.

What are my motives for saying this? hrm...I think it's because I hope to make some change in the reader who has followed this whole series of thoughts (from Chris' Start). If no change has been made, then I do think that for the most part it is because they didn't want to change. I believe that understanding leads to change. If I understand something in a new way then I behave in a new way. I don't understand much of what KT says, asserts untruths and hides from truth, I know I don't agree with him. Maybe I don't understand, maybe I don't want to. Maybe that has something to do with it. Maybe I should clean this coffee shop. OK.

Ezekiel the demon

Hello gentlemen.

Thought while you were still in the area I'd share my two coppers.

I in fact happen to be a free market capitalist, of the laissez-faire old guard, for a couple reasons.

First, and leastly, the free market promotes and encourages the class struggle, of fighters vs. mages, of adventurers vs. monsters. I am free to hoard my loot as I see fit, or spend it on traps and minions, while you are free to kill me and take my treasure and buy a magic sword. Or commission a painting of yourself killing me.

(I'm sure we'd all nod, "d'accord", when I assert that any PC is, tautologically, a capitalist of this sort. Not once in my long days across the planes have I seen a PC build a poorhouse.)

Second, I am a capitalist for the simple reason that the changes in socioeconomic policies have enacted child labor laws.

And that's a damn shame.

I'm well-aware that it's not the popular opinion, n'est-pas 'P.C.', but in my view, the legislation of child labor laws has ultimately done more harm than good. Need I cite a report showing an increase in child crimes? Or the new data on the increased number of youths finding their way to the Abyss post-mortem? Partially due, no doubt, to the current lack of responsibility and oversight of these young hooligans. Need I mention statistics on the earning power of families with working tots, vs. families where fatty lads and lasses roll around in front of broken television sets complaining about the lack of Fruit Rollups? I think we're all in agreement.

But mainly, child labor makes for good, strong, delicious healthy children. <:)

And that's a fact.

Thanks for listening; fascinating discussion going on here.

Ezekiel 'E-Z' Glabrezu

KT

If you can't even define "the market," how can we measure an impact on it? The definition is actually really important. Because one thing is for certain: WalMart has benefited people who have owned its stock from the beginning.

I think your argument may be something along these lines: Some large companies like WalMart benefit shareholders more than they benefit employees by being low cost providers (and therefore striving to keep costs, like employee salaries, down). This is not necessarily good.

If that is your argument, you are essentially attacking the entire low cost provider industry. Everything from McDonald's to WalMart to CVS and beyond. Because these large chains employ so many people, they have to keep salaries/wages down in order to fulfill their mission. Raising the minimum wage will then raise the cost of goods that are carried at these chains (and grocery stores), since the costs will certainly be passed along.

That's where the inflation argument comes in--I'm not saying that economy-wide inflation will occur, but low cost items will certainly increase in price (that's why I restricted my comment to "goods these people will buy, like bread").

Anyone could have asked that question without the study, you did before you even brought up the study. I still don't know what a Swaminathin (sp?) is.

And in your recent post you discuss "the local economy;" why do local effects take precedence over overall effects? That proposition is also at odds with your earlier concern ("overall health").

I agree that it would be nice if we could have companies that generate no ill effects at all and make everyone happier and wealthier. I'm sure most companies would if it were as simple as checking a box. But business isn't that simple. I would like to do something for the poor as well. But, like Rob said, I think the major causes of poverty are behavioral/mental illness/medical disability, and these problems don't go away just by throwing money at them.

A lot of people who start out at minimum wage are able to climb the ranks if they try, and become middle class--despite having no education. Remember Justin? He was minimum wage, and he is now a manager or buyer or something pretty high up at Poppa John's.

Oh no! My money!

I'd be surprised if that increase in poor folk correlating with Walmarts was due to a decrease in the upper class. But, you never know.

Also, that's kinda harsh to say the study doesn't provide any valuable information. Just being able to ask the question, "Ok, but does it increase the 'overall health' of the country as a whole?" is a valuable result.

Not stock market. The market as a whole. We know that some local businesses can't compete with Walmart. Walmart can dramatically alter the local market economy just by moving in. That's what I mean by market manipulation. Not stock market manipulation, that's for the banks. -They are big, they have resources, thus, they can have a large impact, whatever they do.

Ok, so your not a capitalist, child labor working, polluting radical. Sorry I inferred as much.

KTizzle

New haiku suggestion (7 syllables)
"Kick some bass, behind closed doors"

And "From serene to danger" is 6 syllables, not 5 or 7.

King tut

---Unrestricted Capitalism---
I'm not sure how you could infer that I believe in "unrestricted capitalism." I didn't mention anything about abolishing all labor laws, private rights of actions (lawsuits) for harm caused through pollution, etc. I'm against direct distribution of income and leveling.

Stay away from the academic "extreme to extreme" ping-pong game, I'm for moderation.

---Locke/Free Market---
Locke's property theory is that labor converts public property to private. I don't see how that's relevant, it supports my point but I'm not relying on it, I don't use him as support.

I also don't see why you are implying that I believe "the freer the market the better." There's direct evidence against that assertion (e.g. the above reasons).

---WalMart study---
Increasing/decreasing the number of people above or below the poverty line doesn't provide anything more than anecdotal evidence regarding the number of people in the middle class. You are making an assumption if you are implying that the increase in people below the poverty line was due to WalMart somehow moving people from the middle class to below the poverty line.

I still don't see how this has anything to do with market manipulation--are you referring to the stock market? How is WalMart manipulating the stock market?

I've never heard of that journal. What's a Swaminathan (sp?)? At any rate, even if WalMart somehow increased poverty in the immediate area, the journal does not mention if WalMart increased or decreased the "overall health" of the country, or whatever your test is. Even under your test, it's perfectly possible that WalMart increased the number of people below the poverty line in the immediate areas and increased the overall number of people in the middle class. So the study doesn't really provide any valuable information.

---Wealth---
Regardles of whether or not anyone believes the WalMart children "deserve" any amount of money, Sam Walton (I think that's his name) founded the company and earned the money, and I think that gives him the right to do whatever he wants with it. He could pick a name out of the phonebook and give his entire estate to that person if he wanted. Why should the government, or anyone else, be able to tell him what he can and can't do with his money?

If the goverment can order him, why can't it order us? What about a rule that no one could have more than $5,000 in liquid assets at any time, and $100,000 in total assets? Or how about $2,000 and $50,000? The excess would be given to someone else who is below these limits.

---Haiku---
This one is pretty good:
My brain aches for you
Blood taints the white fallen snow
How satisfying

Sometimes the text doesn't really appear, I have to highlight it to get it to show. Is the font the same color as the background or something?

Then again...

Perhaps we should just heed RH:

I just crapped my pants
Exposed in open country
Live life with gusto

Disclaimer

Don't think I am saying direct distribution is good.

It's just that I believe a good economy is somewhere between communism and capitalism. Some folks need a hand up, for the good of all when times are hard. Similarly, folks also need to be able to aspire to success. this is also for the good of all.

I just wonder if we have any existing businesses that are doing quite well, but maybe at the expense of the whole rather than the good. I believe that this is a real possibility.

It's happened before.

Wassup Locke?

Why should we believe unrestricted capitalism is good? Mining towns? Child Labor? Rivers so polluted they burn?

These are products of unrestricted captialism that were recognized to be problematic and subsequently restrictions were put in place.

Why do you say a minimum wage increase will drive inflation? The majority of literature, as well as the statistics of those states with a higher state minimum wage does not support this.

I think it's strange, how passionately some people think the freeer the market, the better everything will be.

Pure capitalism works just as good as pure communism. -Great on paper.

Why should the Wallmart kids get all that money they didn't earn? I am not saying they shouldn't, but really, ask yourself why? Is it because if they couldn't get 16 billion a piece, Sam Waldon wouldn't have worked so hard? -That's not entirely true. Let's not pretend it is. Let's really ask ourselves, do they really deserve all of it? And, if so, why? If not, why?

Also, can you earn 16 billion? Is anyone's time worth that? No. What you are really saying, is this: "If someone sets events into motion (through hard work or not) that provide them and their heirs any amount of money, they are all entitled to it.

BTW, I am not saying that Walmart has unfettered market manipulation, but they do have very strong market manipulation. Maybe too strong for the good of the market as a whole. Isn't that a possibility?

Oh yeah: Wal-Mart and County-Wide Poverty: Stephan J. Goetz and Hema Swaminathan Social Science Quarterly Volume 87 Page 211 - June 2006 Results: After controlling for other factors determining changes in the poverty rate over time, we find that counties with more initial (1987) Wal-Mart stores and counties with more additions of stores between 1987 and 1998 experienced greater increases (or smaller decreases) in family-poverty rates during the 1990s economic boom period.

Like two shits in the night

Whoa there Paul. Like I said before, attacking 'motives' isn't fruitful here. (In response to your statement 'I don't think you want to understand'.)

Actually, that's a deep issue. Why the hell do people argue? When has anyone ever radically reversed their position on a major issue, after intellectual debate? I don't think it really happens. Mostly what we do here on Table Talk is just yell to make ourselves heard.

It's not just us. I've seen it all my life, and I'd guess you guys have too. See it all the time in science. People take positions, and then do experiments to support their positions. Scientific revolutions don't occur after someone does a great experiment- they occur when the old guard dies, and the younger crowd is able to champion the new great experiments unopposed.

...

Pell Grants are for education. Not sure about Pells, but with most educational grants, you get more money the longer you've successfully stayed in school. This is what I mean by 'merit-based' funding, and it's short-term funding for a particular purpose: education, so that people can support themselves long-term.

This is exactly the kind of program I fully support, and I wish there were more 'free money' programs like it.

This is very different from Friedman's 'give everyone $24000 every year' program obviously, though, so let's stay on topic.

Likewise, I'm not really sure how the Marshall Plan is analogous. The Marshall Plan also was a short-term boost to reconstruct war-torn Europe. I support giving money to Iraq now for the same reasons.

These are SHORT-TERM programs with specific funding targets.

...

What we're talking about is the government giving LONG-TERM support with its eyes shut. That's the core of Friedman's plan as it is on our Table. From what little I've read, it seems that Friedman in particular really just wanted a simplified welfare system- he rejected his 'free money' proposal when it went to congress as it was tacked on to the existing system. That's an important footnote. Friedman wanted a restructuring of the extant system, not just to give extra money away.

...

In response to your question, Steve, I'm a meritocratic capitalist with progressive leanings. I'm sort of a Horatio Alger bootstrapper in that way: "do it yourself, damn it". But I support state welfare for the sick and disabled and I support nationalistic imperialism. I support Science, and whatever brings money to the science lab. I support free public education through undergraduate levels.

But mainly I think that most issues of policy need to be special-cased. Meaning that I really don't just support the state paying everything for anyone who won't work regardless of the reason. I think that labor unions are a good idea for some endeavors, but I didn't join the union when they asked me. (Because I'm happy and well-paid and have a great relationship with my employer already, so union organization seems like unnecessary bureaucracy that, if anything, might foster a less cooperative relationship.)

...

On that note, I think that whatever sum of money you think every American should get just for being American, it's probably better spent siphoned into the school system.

In short, I mostly agree with Steve. There's a reason why the States are the military and scientific world power. There's a reason why the language of Science is English, and not German (like it used to be) or Russian (like it could have been). There's a reason why the car, the lightbulb, the computer, toilet paper, atomic weapons, and goddamn weblogs were all made right here. (I just checked wikipedia for the toilet paper reference. The others I'm pretty sure about.)

King tut

---Walmart---
What is "unfettered market manipulation"? What market is Walmart manipulating and how are they manipulating it? Walmart offers employment, that people can voluntarily take or not take. America is still a capitalistic meritocratic society, which means that capital is accumulated and invested, and the cream rises to the top.

I haven't seen any empirical evidence demonstrating whether or not Walmart increases or decreases the number of people in the middle class, and I would argue that it increases that number due to the positions such as manager, etc.

---Business Regulation---
The government absolutely should NOT legislate a company's ability to do business based upon "[its] effects on the economy as a whole." The sheer cost of such a study (quick, what is Microsoft's effect on the economy as a whole expressed as a single dollar figure?) is staggering. Also, I think the government's meager and already over-extended resources could be better expended elsewhere. How about focusing on crime? Infrastructure? Alternative energy? Medical research? Defense? Another big problem with the concept of the government approving or disproving businesses is that it would lead to lots of litigation; a company could argue each little point in the government's findings over and over. That would be really expensive to litigate.

---Direct Distribution---
All these plans about giving people $XX,XXX dollars don't specify who exactly will pay for it. The government? That means the taxpayers. And since America has a graduated income tax, that primarily means the corporations and the wealthy will fund it. Why on Earth should the Walmart kids, or Microsoft, be forced to pay homeless/unemployed people for being homeless/unemployed? Why should I, a non-wealthy working stiff, have to pay them? Regardless of how much any of you think is "enough" money for someone, it is not illegal to accumulate and conserve wealth, and I don't think it should be. The incentive to do better for yourself prompts a lot of the great inventions and advances we have. Also, where would we set any sort of limit? The already ultra-rich would obviously argue for a very high limit, but to someone making $20,000 a year, any limit over a million might seem unfathomable. Who is right, and who would decide who is right?

Personally, I have serious problems with just about any sort of leveling argument (leveling is the old "take from the rich and give to the poor."). I don't see why someone who has earned the money should be forced to do something with it. If I want to pass on my accumulated wealth to my kids, why shouldn't I be able to? If I can't, it might disincent me to accumulate wealth, which would then force my kids to work for their money, which opens the possibility of creating more homeless (if my kids are unable/unwilling to work). I also don't see why we would take capital from those that have demonstrated they know what to do with it and give it to those who have demonstrated that they don't. That would be like forcing Harvard, etc. to use 1/10th of its admissions spots on people who are not literate...does anyone support that plan?

---Minimum Wage---
The problem with minimum wage is that an increase in it will drive inflation, and provide a possible disincentive to create businesses. Pensions are beautiful in theory, but they are also, in practice, the main reason that the American auto industry (and much of Germany) has so many serious economic problems. I think the pension situation is analogous to a significantly higher minimum wage--great in theory, probably flawed in practice. If the government is regulating a minimum wage to give to people, it is probably because, based on skill alone, they cannot command any higher wage--which means that their labor is worth less than what the company is paying them, which means that the company is losing money on them, which means that the company must charge an artificially higher price for its goods. This makes the company vulnerable to competition, particularly global competition from companies that don't have to deal with regulations.

---Conclusion---
What exactly is your collective (the socialism implication is intentional) economic philosophy? Capitalism paired with forced redistribution of wealth together with a regulatory regime that determines who can and cannot do business?